Aftermarket parts - what works and what is a waste of cash?

[DGatzby]

I wish I could help out with the toe adjustments but I'm just getting set straight on camber.

We got all AAD minus the toe rods at the moment and with parker's recommendation for #6 tabs I am at -0.4 left and 0.0 right. I will probably step up to #7's to see the change it makes before going to a #8 or seeing if Parker can spin off a custom 7.5 tab.

Toe is set to -0.05 each L&R and 0.0 thrust angle as a result. This appears to have at least severely minimized the rear end "oscillation" or wobble I had under HARD acceleration. Before measurements were -0.13 and -0.43!!!!

I have not touched the factory settings in the front whatsoever. The toe rods are next.

Holy shit. The -0.13 degree may work, but I absolutely know what the -0.43 will do! I believe they got mine dialed in a little while ago, finally. He just needed to put in the “zero” toe tabs, and double check. They tell me he is happy. I will be driving it soon myself, if it is at zero or near it, I am confident it is the magic combo. I’ll let you know.

 

[Finface]

All,

I want to shout out a big THANK YOU to DGatzby. He has been a great resource for me in learning about suspension mods and how I might improve the handling of my 2019 Hellcat Redeye (we have the same Challengers, mine PC Purple), both by posting his findings and videos here in our forum, and answering the many neophyte questions I had via email. He has been extremely generous with his time and expertise. I've seen many others remark they appreciate his pathfinding, and insights. None, I can assure you all, more than me! Some of this stuff is complicated!

I did one HPDE weekend at the National Corvette Museum a year ago and I'm hooked. I'm new to Challengers, new to HPDE, and of marginal utility in an automotive garage (imagine Homer Simpson pondering a car repair), but I'm eager to learn and fortunately have a nice detached garage to work on my car. I have two HPDE weekends scheduled in October with 10/10th's Motorsports and I should have my mods installed by my dealership mid-September. I have taken the cautionary advice here seriously and know the number one mod is me - my understanding of geometry and physics as it pertains to these heavy fast cars cornering and braking on curvy tracks.

I've also gotten much from posts in reply to this thread, and others on related subjects, about the art and science of driving fast. Thanks to all. I'll add my experiences to DGatzby's thread on what works and what doesn't, and how my modification journey goes, after I track the car in October.

Best,

Finface

 

[DGatzby]

Your welcome. Let us know how it feels after you get everything installed. And drive safe, it is going to hook!

 

[DGatzby]

Okay. I decided yesterday, I will get the rear toe set-up perfect myself. I am tired of changing wheels and running it around to confirm all my settings, plus donating money to others on such a simple thing. I’ll have this little new toy for next weekend. Need to dial it in for Sep 21. It has a date at BIR for the Comp Course in the morning and the big dog configuration in the afternoon. I want a personal best lap time this year with this car!!

https://www.quicktrickalignment.com/product/4thgen/

 

[fubar569]

This..has my interest.

 

[Finface]

Okay. I decided yesterday, I will get the rear toe set-up perfect myself. I am tired of changing wheels and running it around to confirm all my settings, plus donating money to others on such a simple thing. I’ll have this little new toy for next weekend. Need to dial it in for Sep 21. It has a date at BIR for the Comp Course in the morning and the big dog configuration in the afternoon. I want a personal best lap time this year with this car!!

https://www.quicktrickalignment.com/product/4thgen/

DGatzby,

Looks like it is a precision tool. Has a carrying case! I bet that will handily fit in the Challenger's trunk.

When you're done designing hydro-electic dams maybe you can buzz around the Midwest with it to various HPDE events - rent a garage and hang out a shingle that reads, "Alignment Consultant and Toe-In Specialist" - and clean up. Do on the spot checks and fixes when you're not roaring around the track!

Please let us know how you like it. $449 - a couple of alignments you save by having it will pay for it.

And...I bet you get your personal best lap time on the long course at BIR!

Best,

Finface

 

[DGatzby]

DGatzby,

Looks like it is a precision tool. Has a carrying case! I bet that will handily fit in the Challenger's trunk.

When you're done designing hydro-electic dams maybe you can buzz around the Midwest with it to various HPDE events - rent a garage and hang out a shingle that reads, "Alignment Consultant and Toe-In Specialist" - and clean up. Do on the spot checks and fixes when you're not roaring around the track!

Please let us know how you like it. $449 - a couple of alignments you save by having it will pay for it.

And...I bet you get your personal best lap time on the long course at BIR!

Best,

Finface

Don’t call me a designer again or your set-up will suck and fire ants will feast on your private parts while you sleep at night.

Hell I got the $229 kit. One gauge works for me, I can unclip and clip it on both sides. Well, I don’t know about precise. I hope that toe will be within 1/32” but with a tape rule, I hope this old carpenter can get that, we will see. You know my story, I am not going to keep paying them to check the alignment. Plus it is a PIA to boot on the OEM wheels and take it somewhere. I need one more confirmation this toe is on it. If I get good, I may start on the front toe and caster with wicked camber changes. Might as well be me. The 4S tires are good. Those Cup 2’s apparently need lots of heat to start working, Good lap times may take a few laps on course to get things working, because it is getting colder and colder up here. They WILL NOT work on the street. Actually cold they may be a bit concerning if you try anything cute. Everything else seems to be working good. I am not sure a guy can do so much WOT btw corners with these Redeye monsters. I am looking forward to taking advantage of the big front meats again with a good rear alignment.

When do you get everything installed? I want to hear which tab works in your rear toe arms.

 

[Finface]

Don’t call me a designer again or your set-up will suck and fire ants will feast on your private parts while you sleep at night.

Hell I got the $229 kit. One gauge works for me, I can unclip and clip it on both sides. Well, I don’t know about precise. I hope that toe will be within 1/32” but with a tape rule, I hope this old carpenter can get that, we will see. You know my story, I am not going to keep paying them to check the alignment. Plus it is a PIA to boot on the OEM wheels and take it somewhere. I need one more confirmation this toe is on it. If I get good, I may start on the front toe and caster with wicked camber changes. Might as well be me. The 4S tires are good. Those Cup 2’s apparently need lots of heat to start working, Good lap times may take a few laps on course to get things working, because it is getting colder and colder up here. They WILL NOT work on the street. Actually cold they may be a bit concerning if you try anything cute. Everything else seems to be working good. I am not sure a guy can do so much WOT btw corners with these Redeye monsters. I am looking forward to taking advantage of the big front meats again with a good rear alignment.

When do you get everything installed? I want to hear which tab works in your rear toe arms.

Lol! I wasn't calling you an interior designer (not that there is anything wrong with that!). I have always thought of engineers as akin to architects, but instead of designing houses they design stuff like dams, bridges, freeways and mechanical things.

I didn't see the cheaper kit. Makes even more sense.

Your comment on the Cup 2's needing to heat up and on the street a bit concerning mirrors feedback I got on them by an experienced Corvette racer. When hot they are great, when cold...better remember they're cold.

The suspension parts go on September 16th. Still waiting on the wheels and tires. I'll let you know about the rear toe link tabs. I'll send you all the tabs I wind up with in the three adjustable AAD parts.

 

[sad]

Yes. The cup2s need a good amount of heat to work well as it gets cooler (below 50-ish)... and are downright scary below 40-ish.... but then again, this holds true for any sub-200 TWI tire. The stickier the tire, the worse it is.

Should be noted to get them heated up gradually. Take your time to ensure the tire is warm all thru the carcass.

Also worth noting... surface of the track needs to warm up too... Sunlight does wonders for cold asphalt.

 

[DGatzby]

Lol! I wasn't calling you an interior designer (not that there is anything wrong with that!). I have always thought of engineers as akin to architects, but instead of designing houses they design stuff like dams, bridges, freeways and mechanical things.

I didn't see the cheaper kit. Makes even more sense.

Your comment on the Cup 2's needing to heat up and on the street a bit concerning mirrors feedback I got on them by an experienced Corvette racer. When hot they are great, when cold...better remember they're cold.

The suspension parts go on September 16th. Still waiting on the wheels and tires. I'll let you know about the rear toe link tabs. I'll send you all the tabs I wind up with in the three adjustable AAD parts.

I wrote a detailed mail to AAD today. I need to know who else needed to use the most extreme toe tabs to get zero toe. OR, it is wrong, I will find out not later than Saturday morning.

I may just drive my street set on the track on the 21st. That combo may be one of the best of all considering the weather. I just don’t believe I can get the Cup 2’s hot enough to work. They worse than suck when cold. We expect highs in the 60’s by then. That is a butt wad warmer than today (50 and cloudy!).

Hey @sad! How are you? I am going to use those pads on the 21st. I plan to have no mercy upon them or those rotors.

 

[sad]

....Hey @sad! How are you? I am going to use those pads on the 21st. I plan to have no mercy upon them or those rotors.

Very cool! Give ‘em hell.... their normal operating temp range is all the way (by memory here) up to 1500 degrees....

I just installed mine on the Vette yesterday - track weekend Friday and Sunday coming up.... Forgotten how much bite they have. Can literally make you nauseas in the Vette they hit so hard.

Which brings an important point to mind... A balance is necessary... Balance between tire grip and brake pad capability. You can have too much of one where the other can’t keep up... Meaning, if you have LOTS of brake pad, but not very sticky tires, you’ll find yourself in the ABS all the time and longer stopping distances. Hopefully that makes sense.

 

[DGatzby]

Very cool! Give ‘em hell.... their normal operating temp range is all the way (by memory here) up to 1500 degrees....

I just installed mine on the Vette yesterday - track weekend Friday and Sunday coming up.... Forgotten how much bite they have. Can literally make you nauseas in the Vette they hit so hard.

Which brings an important point to mind... A balance is necessary... Balance between tire grip and brake pad capability. You can have too much of one where the other can’t keep up... Meaning, if you have LOTS of brake pad, but not very sticky tires, you’ll find yourself in the ABS all the time and longer stopping distances. Hopefully that makes sense.

Yep. I was able to get the ABS to just begin to be interested the few times I have bedded the Hawks. Should be fun to feel the difference with those Cobalts. With the news we may have some real sexy light rotors next year, I can hammer it on the 21st. Stopping won’t be my problem. That is good because I am doing the comp (short) course all morning. I’ll need to think about the tires. Morning air temps in the 50’s rising to 60’s by afternoon. Say partly cloudy. Do you think I should try the Cup 2’s?? Again if I bring them, no mercy because I may want to just go with PS4S’s and/or other Pilot Sports on those wheels and need to burn some rubber up! But it would be frustrating if the RE could not get traction. That is losing one of our greatest strengths as you know. Coming out of corners and getting to the next brake zone is something the RE has to do well or forget it.

 

[sad]

Personally, with a morning low of 50s and highs in the 60s, most def would I use the Cup2s. Just first session of the day, feel ‘em out a bit and warm up slowly before attempting 1.05G turns.

I tend to just tire selection by the projected afternoon highs. And just take it easy in the morning.

 

[DGatzby]

Good advice, thanks buddy. Looking forward to looking at this alignment myself soon. Then at least I will have the confidence to power through shit if it is just spinning a bit.

Ha, maybe the morning is a good time to begin drifting practice on the short course corners? That would warm up those rears quick enough.

 

[Finface]

Yes. The cup2s need a good amount of heat to work well as it gets cooler (below 50-ish)... and are downright scary below 40-ish.... but then again, this holds true for any sub-200 TWI tire. The stickier the tire, the worse it is.

Should be noted to get them heated up gradually. Take your time to ensure the tire is warm all thru the carcass.

Also worth noting... surface of the track needs to warm up too... Sunlight does wonders for cold asphalt.

Sad,

Thanks for the information. I will definitely incorporate it into my HPDE driving. I've got 2 two day weekends coming up in early and mid-October. I've got new wheels and Cup 2's coming, hopefully in time for my first HPDE at the National Corvette Museum's track.

I was given the book Going Faster put out by Skip Barber and I've gotten a lot out of it. Working on the Driver Mod.

Michelin Pilot Cup tires are specifically mentioned in Going Faster as an example of street tires that have excellent grip once warmed up, but also exhibit a sharp loss of grip after they reach their maximum grip temperature and if they get hotter than optimum. It was in a section discussing slicks versus "street tires" and how tires react to heating.

Best,

Finface

 

[Finface]

I wrote a detailed mail to AAD today. I need to know who else needed to use the most extreme toe tabs to get zero toe. OR, it is wrong, I will find out not later than Saturday morning.

DGatzby,

I had several email exchanges with AAD seeking information about their tab adjustment system.

My inquiries were part of trying to get a handle on how Challenger alignments come from the factory - so I could anticipate which tabs I'd probably want to start off with for camber. It seemed very weird to me that the front camber tolerance range would be different between left and right sides.

Stock Challengers (for those that don't know reading this) don't come stock with adjustable rear toe, but AAD now sells adjustable rear toe links. What they told me was that for rear toe their "zero" tab (neutral regarding positive or negative toe) was intended to result in zero rear toe - which is factory if you have a "perfect" stock car. They said each car can be slightly different from the factory - how various suspension arms are tightened - attachment to the body hole size - and parts perhaps being slightly different - how the cradle is installed especially for the front which has the engine on it. Each .5mm of tab change is supposed to change the rear toe about .13 degrees. The tab change degree values per .5mm of tab change are different for the rear camber, and about .12mm for front camber. I will email you excerpts about this from AAD's email later today and hopefully they will dovetail with their response to your email, and I know if there are any misconception I'm laboring under you'll help me out *grin*.

Best,

Finface

 

[DGatzby]

Got the QuickTrick alignment kit yesterday. https://www.quicktrickalignment.com/shop

I don’t know if anyone else is using this instead of paying for alignments? It basically paid for itself already! Between what we pay a shop, make time to take our cars in, waste more time picking it up and finally giving them a credit card to see the money go away forever.

Being an old carpenter (bet you folks did not know that about me)and still enjoy doing stuff with wood when needed around here, this device was a breeze. As usual directions are for dummies, so it took about 10 min to look at put together and basically then take it out and see how bad I could screw up the chrome wheels. Kidding, the wheels are fine. It has a great little lip that slips on the outside of the wheel. Tomorrow when I set it up for some camber checking, I’ll take more time and at least get some tape on the edges. That may help it say it place also. But here is a picture.



The toe process is simply done with two measurement tapes, which they give us. They have slots for the tape. It is graduated in imperial for us old smart people and the foreign favorite metric for the young trophy winners. I prefer 1/32” or 0.0313” instead of 0.79502 mm. Why TF do I need two different ways? Anyway, I have not been so pleased with something for a long time. First time I did the rear in a hurry, it was off. I was pissed. Ate dinner, complained, threatened. The calm one kept telling me to not make a big deal. So she agreed to help quick to set it up on the fronts for a check also. It took maybe 5-10 min to set it up up front. I immediately notice that maybe I was not careful inserting the dumb end of the tape(s) right in the slots.

I carefully do the front. I find the front off by 1/8”. Actually on the money, toe-in. Ok. Check the alignment chart from the dealer. Did some of that old trigonometry, and damn, it should be off exactly 1/8”! I suddenly become pretty damn confident.

We re-do the rear. I am a near expert now, set it up twice now, right! I’ll be damn, the rear is not close, not even a guess, both sides nearly 1/32-1/64 just short of 83”, and both right on the same spot on both tapes! That toe is right on zero. The new AAD arms have the three notch bottom tab or their +1.5mm inserted. That is the longest length tab out of six sets. So I am waiting for the boys in KC at AAD to read their mail and send me a couple more tabs in case I want to dial this rear into more toe-in.

So I may just do two track days in the next two weeks! Stay tuned, because tomorrow I need to read the directions of the fancy level they gave us and get it to display the camber on each wheel. Then I get to change the front camber and play with it to check my work. I am never paying for an alignment on this car ever again. Happy days!!

 

[fubar569]

Your kit is 2 brackets, 2 tapes and only the 1 digital gauge? Remember which part number you selected?

Eagerly awaiting the feedback on camber adjustments. I may just have to pick this one up but may go with a slight upgrade.

 

[DGatzby]

It looks like a breeze for camber. I’ll detail that in the morning. I do need to read the directions on the electronic part of the level. It looks like you calibrate from the floor, hit a button, put it on the vertical rod and press another button to get the camber reading on that wheel. Caster up front looks like it may be more easy if you spend the cash on $200 worth of floor pads with the gauges for the turn angle. Otherwise a guy could devise his own way of measuring 20 degrees of movement left and right.

I got the Pro kit. 17-22” wheels for $299. Amazon delivered it in three days. You don’t need two levels, it is quite portable, it fits in your pocket, right. I don’t need a steering lockout. I went in, eyeballed the wheel, backed up and forward once or twice and just went with it. Eyeballed the tires on the exterior and was convinced it was straight ahead. The front toe came out exactly where they said it was for $100’s of dollars! The rear toe takes minutes now. Should never have to screw with it again unless for some reason I want to try just a bit of toe-in. But if it accelerates straight without scaring the shit out of me to about 165 I’m in! The 4S’s have hit almost that, so now it’s up to the Cup 2’s to get enough heat to stick. I may do a day at the track Monday, and it is to be sunny and in the ‘70’s so I’ll get it somehow dialed in yet.

 

[2fast4u]

@DGatzby ...Just get a couple of thick cardboard boxes and cut 4 big squares. put a double layer under the tires you are checking,(ie.both fronts), and you will be able to turn wheels fairly easily! I have a digital protractor that easily tells degrees of movement. They are pretty inexpensive to find.The one I have is a Fowler mini mag electronic protractor, it runs about 75.00