Aftermarket parts - what works and what is a waste of cash?

[sad]

@DGatzby good to see the product working out so well for you!

Hope your testing/adjustment track-days serve you well.

Today for me? Rained all day. So left around 1:30. BUT, I go back Sunday. Weather promises better forecast then.

 

[DGatzby]

@DGatzby ...Just get a couple of thick cardboard boxes and cut 4 big squares. put a double layer under the tires you are checking,(ie.both fronts), and you will be able to turn wheels fairly easily! I have a digital protractor that easily tells degrees of movement. They are pretty inexpensive to find.The one I have is a Fowler mini mag electronic protractor, it runs about 75.00

Thanks. I have a pile of old protractors, even a slide rule! They gave me some sort of an engineering degree back before computers and all this fancy stuff. I’ll just draw the lines for my limits on the cardboard. Thanks for the tip. Every $200 bucks saved puts more money in the tire jar.

 

[DGatzby]

@DGatzby good to see the product working out so well for you!

Hope your testing/adjustment track-days serve you well.

Today for me? Rained all day. So left around 1:30. BUT, I go back Sunday. Weather promises better forecast then.

Decided the weather forecast for Monday can’t be better. Going to go up with the Vette club and work the Comp course. Then a week from Monday again a morning of Comp course, then the kid is going for his personal best Donnybrook lap time with all afternoon on the big one! Hope the track gets hot enough in two weeks. I am going to work those pads. Thanks again for them.

 

[DGatzby]

More feedback, this time on brake pads. I have used up about four sets of Hawk DTC 70 Pads now on my DP rotors. Fairly accustomed to its brake distances and feel. For emergency purposes I substituted a new set of Brembo pads in the fronts yesterday. BIG DIFFERENCE! So big I won’t run them next Monday. You could call it a fade I guess, but on two of the stop zones requiring the most power on BIR, the pedal was to the stops! It did stop, but not even close to how the Hawks work in the same places. It caused me to slow down as much as 50 yards sooner in 3 and to really shorten the aggression on the throttle btw 11-12. I will say it can be worth a few seconds. AutoAnything to the rescue with delivery of new Hawk -70’s before this weekend

@TrackDay you know what I am taking about, slowing down for #3 and #12. Now that it stopped the spooky darting left and right with power, I can carry speed again!

 

[TrackDay]

Glad to hear it @DGatzby. And yes, the stock pads are nothing in comparison to the DTC70 pads. I haven't seen many cars outstop me on the 70s.
A friend is trying the 295/30 Hoosier R7 tires at Mid Ohio in the next week or so. He's still on 10" wheels. I'm really curious how they work for him. If he has a good verdict maybe I'll try a set of 305/30 next year with DTC80 pads and brake cooling fans and see if I can break some of my best times.
My main goal is to have a car I can do lap after lap with at Road America, like I can now at Brainerd.

 

[DGatzby]

Glad to hear it @DGatzby. And yes, the stock pads are nothing in comparison to the DTC70 pads. I haven't seen many cars outstop me on the 70s.
A friend is trying the 295/30 Hoosier R7 tires at Mid Ohio in the next week or so. He's still on 10" wheels. I'm really curious how they work for him. If he has a good verdict maybe I'll try a set of 305/30 next year with DTC80 pads and brake cooling fans and see if I can break some of my best times.
My main goal is to have a car I can do lap after lap with at Road America, like I can now at Brainerd.

That would be fun. I think you can do it. You better, I will!

I am returning to BIR Monday. They can ride along now. So if I can get a set of pads overnight, I am going to try for a hot lap or two with some “coaching”. Comp course in the AM to warm up. Big circuit after lunch.

One thing the Brembo pads leave literally piles of dust on my wheels compared to the rear set of Hawks. It is amazing,

 

[Finface]

I was reading an article on brake pads and "do you always have to turn rotors" and, as usual, there are differing opinions with shops at least always wanting to do it for liability purposes, and DIY's saying not necessary if the rotors are undamaged and in pretty smooth shape. One point made about DIY's was if you plan on not turning the rotors every time buy softer brake pads. Softer pads will wear faster, necessitating more frequent pad changes, but won't wear the rotors as much. DGatzby...those Hawk DTC 70 pads - they sound soft (good), sound much better than the stock Brembo pads for stopping (how about heating up during HPDE?), and being less dusty is a nice plus. For rotor life are they good pads that would save turning or replacing rotors over the long haul? I know you change rotors with your pads when you change between track and street - keep them a mated set - but I might not want to go that far.

Anyone else have thoughts on soft brake pads that would be good for road course and save on the rotor labor/cost?

 

[DGatzby]

I was reading an article on brake pads and "do you always have to turn rotors" and, as usual, there are differing opinions with shops at least always wanting to do it for liability purposes, and DIY's saying not necessary if the rotors are undamaged and in pretty smooth shape. One point made about DIY's was if you plan on not turning the rotors every time buy softer brake pads. Softer pads will wear faster, necessitating more frequent pad changes, but won't wear the rotors as much. DGatzby...those Hawk DTC 70 pads - they sound soft (good), sound much better than the stock Brembo pads for stopping (how about heating up during HPDE?), and being less dusty is a nice plus. For rotor life are they good pads that would save turning or replacing rotors over the long haul? I know you change rotors with your pads when you change between track and street - keep them a mated set - but I might not want to go that far.

Anyone else have thoughts on soft brake pads that would be good for road course and save on the rotor labor/cost?

So @Finface the Brembo and Hawk racing pads are horrible for dust. Make no mistake, I avoid using them on the street except if I don’t want to trailer it and drive it to and from the track. They stop in a bit shorter distance cold to luke-warm than a Brembo and have a higher temp range they work at, therefore no fade when some of us really heat them up repeatedly. In other words drive the shit out of over two tons of mass and need to slow it down quick!

I can’t imagine that the Z26 pads would even hairline scratch a DP rotor. So you could keep the rotors on. That is what your are asking. Just be sure to abrasively scrape the racing pad residue off the rotor. Hell some moderate stops on the way home from the track will start that process. Then vise-versa when you put the racing pads on, scrape off the Z26 residue. Both ways use the racing pads for the scraping. Not going to work doing that with a Z26. That would be a bad scene. After you scrape the Z26 stuff off - which should not take much, you need to bed-in the racing pad. After you scrape the racing stuff off, you probably don’t need to worry about bedding the Z26 so much. I would just do a few moderate stops to test out it’s fundamental characteristics. Like flying a plane after someone did some crap to it, and you are the test pilot. You get that one!

This guy has a great series of videos that help explain some very important things to understand if you are going to manage or DIY stuff on your brakes.

 

[DGatzby]

Look at what the UPS fairy gave me! Just got the monster all cleaned up. What a great morning!

 

[Finface]

So @Finface the Brembo and Hawk racing pads are horrible for dust. Make no mistake, I avoid using them on the street except if I don’t want to trailer it and drive it to and from the track. They stop in a bit shorter distance cold to luke-warm than a Brembo and have a higher temp range they work at, therefore no fade when some of us really heat them up repeatedly. In other words drive the shit out of over two tons of mass and need to slow it down quick!

I can’t imagine that the Z26 pads would even hairline scratch a DP rotor. So you could keep the rotors on. That is what your are asking. Just be sure to abrasively scrape the racing pad residue off the rotor. Hell some moderate stops on the way home from the track will start that process. Then vise-versa when you put the racing pads on, scrape off the Z26 residue. Both ways use the racing pads for the scraping. Not going to work doing that with a Z26. That would be a bad scene. After you scrape the Z26 stuff off - which should not take much, you need to bed-in the racing pad. After you scrape the racing stuff off, you probably don’t need to worry about bedding the Z26 so much. I would just do a few moderate stops to test out it’s fundamental characteristics. Like flying a plane after someone did some crap to it, and you are the test pilot. You get that one!

This guy has a great series of videos that help explain some very important things to understand if you are going to manage or DIY stuff on your brakes.

Thanks, DGatzby. Real good information. Great advice to test out the car's brake pads before going on the track. I'll get some Hawk pads ordered (where did you just buy yours?) - they sound great. Interesting on car brake rotor cleaning operation video - fire in the hole!

Here is an old airline pilot joke from the days when there was a captain, a first officer and a second officer (engineer, sitting sideways behind the crew and usually a new hire pilot). How can you tell if it has been a great four day trip?

The engineer gets a free meal.
The first officer gets laid.
The captain has a bowel movement.

And another one...What are the three things you NEVER want to hear in the cockpit?

The engineer say, "In my experience..."
The first officer say, "I've been thinking..."
And the captain say, "Watch this!"

So, DGatzby, in your experience (and given that I have none) how much remaining brake pad is safe before a two day HPDE weekend? How do you measure it?

 

[DGatzby]

Thanks, DGatzby. Real good information. Great advice to test out the car's brake pads before going on the track. I'll get some Hawk pads ordered (where did you just buy yours?) - they sound great. Interesting on car brake rotor cleaning operation video - fire in the hole!

Here is an old airline pilot joke from the days when there was a captain, a first officer and a second officer (engineer, sitting sideways behind the crew and usually a new hire pilot). How can you tell if it has been a great four day trip?

The engineer gets a free meal.
The first officer gets laid.
The captain has a bowel movement.

And another one...What are the three things you NEVER want to hear in the cockpit?

The engineer say, "In my experience..."
The first officer say, "I've been thinking..."
And the captain say, "Watch this!"

So, DGatzby, in your experience (and given that I have none) how much remaining brake pad is safe before a two day HPDE weekend? How do you measure it?

DGatzby, in your experience (and given that I have none) how much remaining brake pad is safe before a two day HPDE weekend?

A new set, and a spare set. This road race stuff is not easy on the pocket.

Those Brembo pads had a half day remaining. They suck, they were worn crooked also, we have seen that before.

Speedlogix has a good line on the product, so she was able to help me overnight. The debris on the front wheels after I scraped the Brembo shit and bedded the Hawk was amazing. The rears could give a rip.

Front


Rear

 

[Finface]

DGatzby, in your experience (and given that I have none) how much remaining brake pad is safe before a two day HPDE weekend?

A new set, and a spare set. This road race stuff is not easy on the pocket.

Those Brembo pads had a half day remaining. They suck, they were worn crooked also, we have seen that before.

Speedlogix has a good line on the product, so she was able to help me overnight. The debris on the front wheels after I scraped the Brembo shit and bedded the Hawk was amazing. The rears could give a rip.

Front
View attachment 25036

Rear
View attachment 25037

A new set, and a spare set. This road race stuff is not easy on the pocket.

Okay...alrighty then...sounds like I'll need a mobile garage. I know 10/10th's Motorsports has some verbiage about "enthusiasts helping other enthusiasts" (words to that effect). I saw a tire vendor at NCM's track last year. I'll check and see if there is somebody changing brake pads for a reasonable fee.

Those Brembo pads had a half day remaining. They suck, they were worn crooked also, we have seen that before.

I won't plan on ever buying OEM brake pads.

I'll check out Speedlogix.

 

[DGatzby]

Good luck finding a brake pad changer for a fee. Takes longer to unbolt-remove-replace-bolt-torque a wheel, than changing pads. They will laugh, be careful.

 

[TrackDay]

Brake pad wear will depend heavily on how hard you use your brakes and that will depend on the driving style and track design. A front set of DTC70 pads will only last me 3 sessions at Road America but I'll get at least 1 more session out of them at Brainerd.
It's pad taper that killed my pad life this year. The pads don't wear evenly front to rear of each pad due to caliper flex under high load.
Wesley should have a Viper caliper adapter available this Fall. The Viper calipers are more resistant to flex and have tapered piston diameters front to rear. Without a taper concern I could probably come close to doubling my pad life.
Many people will rotate their pads during a track day to get more life. That's more work than I want to devote. I need to at least make a full day so I can change or rotate my pads after it's all over.

 

[sad]

Dang! is that your cup2 up front? and comparing it to the cup2 in the rear?

We've got to do something about that for you. Once again... not enough negative camber up front...

We all know how these cars understeer... Another thing to do is change the balance of the stabilizer bars. See if you can get the car into more of a neutral balance or one of a happy tail balance. Loosen/soften up the front (i know counter intuitive) and stiffen up the rear. This will force some of the weight transfer onto both side tires and to get it to rotate around a center axis instead of just one side tire and an axis that is not near the center of the car.

Another thing to consider unfortunately is driver input. I mean, lets face it... none of us are pro race drivers... that's why when the coach/instructor drives our car, it does all kinds of things for them it never seems to do for us.

Even with a perfect setup, a jerky turn-in... or just unsmooth (is that a word?) driver can throw the car and upset the suspension such that it's simply not going to make the turn... or it's going to make it, but it's going to make it and complain the whole way.

Do you have a way to look at data from your runs? Something that would provide running data for steering angle input? Something like a Solo2DL, or similar product, could tell you where you are on the track, and amongst a billion other datapoints, tell you steering angle. Viewing that in graphical format would show us if it's spikey or nice and linear.

Just some random thoughts that I hope you dont mind.

DGatzby, in your experience (and given that I have none) how much remaining brake pad is safe before a two day HPDE weekend?

A new set, and a spare set. This road race stuff is not easy on the pocket.

Those Brembo pads had a half day remaining. They suck, they were worn crooked also, we have seen that before.

Speedlogix has a good line on the product, so she was able to help me overnight. The debris on the front wheels after I scraped the Brembo shit and bedded the Hawk was amazing. The rears could give a rip.

Front
View attachment 25036

Rear
View attachment 25037

 

[sad]

Brake pad wear will depend heavily on how hard you use your brakes and that will depend on the driving style and track design. A front set of DTC70 pads will only last me 3 sessions at Road America but I'll get at least 1 more session out of them at Brainerd.
It's pad taper that killed my pad life this year. The pads don't wear evenly front to rear of each pad due to caliper flex under high load.
Wesley should have a Viper caliper adapter available this Fall. The Viper calipers are more resistant to flex according to his experience. Without a taper concern I could probably come close to doubling my pad life.

Question for you.... Why not go for just a BBK from one of the many makers out there? Not so much for the size (cause they're plenty big)... but for all the other things that generally come along with it? Things that help with deflection for example. Or cooling.

Ver early on, I mentioned how the Cat's brakes where plenty good for the track and you tried to change my mind... Maybe I was just prideful.. Or maybe I just hadn't seen some of what goes into the BBKs that are out there.

I've been driving with a BBK on my Vette for 3 years now and the difference it and my Cat is night and day. You'd probably also end up with a pad shape that was alot more common.

 

[TrackDay]

Question for you.... Why not go for just a BBK from one of the many makers out there? Not so much for the size (cause they're plenty big)... but for all the other things that generally come along with it? Things that help with deflection for example. Or cooling.

Ver early on, I mentioned how the Cat's brakes where plenty good for the track and you tried to change my mind... Maybe I was just prideful.. Or maybe I just hadn't seen some of what goes into the BBKs that are out there.

I've been driving with a BBK on my Vette for 3 years now and the difference it and my Cat is night and day. You'd probably also end up with a pad shape that was alot more common.

I'm not sure of any BBK for our cars. The brake rotors are already larger than any other car except for the new GT500 I think. If the Viper calipers pan out with their titanium pistons and resistance to pad taper I'm not sure I could do much better.
I have some fans that I will install for Road America for next year to help prevent fade. That is my problem track.

 

[TrackDay]

Here are my tires after 5 track days and less than 1000 street miles if memory serves correctly. From top to bottom
Driver Front
Driver Rear
Passenger Front
Passenger Rear
My Driver Rear is the most heavily worn which makes sense in that most corners on CW tracks will be right turns and I'm usually pretty aggressive at coming out of corners. The other 3 tires are wearing pretty similarly and probably had 1 more track day in them. My Driver Rear was starting to delaminate.
These are 305/35 R888R on all 4s with 10.5 front and 11 rear wheels. MP springs with a Hotchkis front bar.

 

[DGatzby]

Brake pad wear will depend heavily on how hard you use your brakes and that will depend on the driving style and track design. A front set of DTC70 pads will only last me 3 sessions at Road America but I'll get at least 1 more session out of them at Brainerd.
It's pad taper that killed my pad life this year. The pads don't wear evenly front to rear of each pad due to caliper flex under high load.
Wesley should have a Viper caliper adapter available this Fall. The Viper calipers are more resistant to flex and have tapered piston diameters front to rear. Without a taper concern I could probably come close to doubling my pad life.
Many people will rotate their pads during a track day to get more life. That's more work than I want to devote. I need to at least make a full day so I can change or rotate my pads after it's all over.

We will see. A Hawk never went that tapered on me, I drove four sessions. Plus they just did not work with a shit all day. I cannot believe how much more solid the DTC-70’s feel. Good news on upcoming brake products!

 

[TrackDay]

We will see. A Hawk never went that tapered on me, I drove four sessions.

You need to stop harder.